Really struggling with the 2nd generation feature in the "laminated vase.wtp" design

[Marfolomew]

I'm attempting to build the "laminated vase" design that came with the WTP software. The 2nd generation Lamination Instructions (for Ring 9) do not match the walk-through instructions in the Laminated Vase Instructions. The1st and 2nd generation angles are different as well as the strip width.

So I tried to recreate the design in Lamination Pro based on the Laminated Vase walk-through Instructions. The 1st generation glue up came out fine (using 45 degrees and 3/4"). For the 2nd generation Lamination Pro specified that the repeating units were 1.4", where-as Woodturner Pro said 1.25". I watched a YouTube video (can't remember who's... it wasn't Lloyd's) that said if WTP and LP repeating units don't match, that I should use the LaminationPro's number. Anyway I made a mess.. None of the repeating patterns looked alike, and I will have to start over from scratch.

I don't believe Chevron2 Lamination Instructions for Ring 6 are correct, either (angle is wrong there also w.r.t the Lamination Vase walkthrough).

As a side note, the Laminated Vase instructions recommend using a laser pointer on a fixed arm to find where to cut the 2nd gen strips. I tried searching for some hardware that might work, but was unsuccessful. So I used my fence and a spacer block, set at half the 1.4". Maybe it would have worked if I had set it at 1/2 of 1.25", but I'm afraid to go through the effort and use up more expensive wood without asking for help.

All advice is appreciated. And if somebody has the correct .lam file (or LM Instructions) for the 2nd Generation Lamination (for Ring9) and the Chevron2 (for Ring6) that matches the WTP walkthrough instructions that would help immensely.

I am using WTP Version 3.1.0.0, Build 3.1.016 and LM Pro Version 3.2, Build 3.2.020.

Thanks,

Jerry

 

[mfisher]

Jerry:
While I have updated my software I am not sure of what laminated vase and walk through instructions you are talking about.
I do not have the project you are refering to.

It would be helpful if you could post the Vase .wtp file and the .lam file.

If you do I will take a look and see if I can help. Another alternative is to contact Lloyd with your questions.

 

[Marfolomew]

Jerry:
While I have updated my software I am not sure of what laminated vase and walk through instructions you are talking about.
I do not have the project you are refering to.

It would be helpful if you could post the Vase .wtp file and the .lam file.

If you do I will take a look and see if I can help. Another alternative is to contact Lloyd with your questions.

Enclosed is my "laminated vase.wtp" file that came with my wtp software (in the samples folder).

Also is a screenshot of the walkthrough pdf for the vase (specifically for the 2nd generation), along with the Lamination instructions for the 2nd generation.

 

[mfisher]

Enclosed is my "laminated vase.wtp" file that came with my wtp software (in the samples folder).

Also is a screenshot of the walkthrough pdf for the vase (specifically for the 2nd generation), along with the Lamination instructions for the 2nd generation.

View attachment 5278

Thanks
I will take a look

 

[mfisher]

I'm attempting to build the "laminated vase" design that came with the WTP software. The 2nd generation Lamination Instructions (for Ring 9) do not match the walk-through instructions in the Laminated Vase Instructions. The1st and 2nd generation angles are different as well as the strip width.

It is a bit confusing when reading the pdf walk-through and the word notes in WTP supporting files.
A tip in using Lamination Pro. LP)
- The repeating unit in LP should be as close as possible to the segment edge length calculated in WTP or SP.
- Repeating Unit length is changed by the first cut width. Increasing the cut width widens the repeating unit.
- The export region in LP (red rectangle) should be set to your ring segment height for when you export the image as a species to WTP.

I will post a response to ring 6 the single gen feature and ring 9 the second gen feature in separate posts.

 

[mfisher]

Ring 6
Using the WTP file you posted
Ring 6 is just a simple chevron. In WTP it shows Ring 6 with a SEL of 2.85" So, that would be the target in LP for the repeating unit.
Using your 3/4 strip width and 45 degree LP shows a repeating unit of 1.5"
A 8 segment ring with 1.5" SEL will be a 3.63" OD. That is what ring 9 has. You need a rings with an OD of approx 6.88
there could be some confusion in the instructions between ring 6 and 9.
=======================================
I would suggest a Ring 6 set up in LP of first gen of 30 to 35 degrees, first cut width of 1.5"
That gives you a repeating unit of 3.0" resulting in a OD ring of 7.25. You should have enough width to turn down to the final diameter of 6.88
that is a slightly larger ring that the 6.88 WTP has in the design.

If you use a first cut strip of 1 3/8 it will give you a repeating unit of 2.75 with an OD the same as ring 5 (6.63 od)

 

[mfisher]

Ring 9 2nd Gen cut.
I noticed the plan has ring 9 as a stave ring. I am modifying the plan to a flat ring for Ring 9. (See attached files)
Also attached a mod LP file
The specs for the flat ring 9 is 8 segments, 2" heigh, 0.75" wide, OD 3", ID 1.63", SEL of 1.24"

For Lamination pro.
same lamination
settings first cut 7/16
Gen 1 45 degrees other settings remain the same
Gen 2 30 degrees. other settings remain the same

 

[Marfolomew]

I really appreciate the help on this. I will attempt to use these new numbers and let you know how it goes, thanks!

 

[mfisher]

Hope it works out for you. I also have found 2ng gen cuts to be a bit challenging. It has been a while since I cut any.

 

[Marfolomew]

OK I'm at the point where I messed up last time, so I thought I would double-check.

For the 2nd Generation cut (in Ring 9), Lamination Pro says to cut through the center of the strips with the declining patterns at 30 degrees. It also says that the width of the repeating units is 1.34" (34.04mm).

I set up my Incra Miter Express to cut it at half the repeating unit (17mm) using a stop block (which isn't shown here in the pic). After 3 cuts my pattern seems to be off already :-( I'm using my transit laser level mounted overhead to double-check if the next cut is landing in the correct spot of the pattern.

Is it more important to cut through the center of the strip of the declining pattern? Or to cut it at half of the repeating unit?
It seems like cutting each unit at a precise width would be more accurate than eyeballing the center, but for my last attempt the pattern in the 1st pair of strips looked vastly different than the pattern in my 8th pair, and I don't want to repeat that mess

 

[Marfolomew]

For reference, here is my original attempt at the 2nd generation, based on the walkthrough instructions for "laminated vase.wtp" that came with Lamination Pro. Note that it is a different pattern than the one you sent me, but I think either one looks great on the vase, and as you pointed out the original instructions were kind of broken. Note that 32 strips didn't even get me 8 full pattern blocks...

I was using a stop block for this attempt (set for 1/2 the repeating unit width), but my pattern just kept getting larger. Needless to say these blocks will not get used in my vase :-(

 

[mfisher]

Is it more important to cut through the center of the strip of the declining pattern? Or to cut it at half of the repeating unit?

The instruction call for cutting through the center of the strip of the declining pattern. What is challenging is to hit exactly at the center
(grey X) on the image and ensuring the miter gauge is cutting at the desired angle.

I am just repeating what the instructions call for. I will admit it has been quite a while since I have cut any 2ng gen patterns. I am more interested in doing patterns with individual segments. Take what I post on this under advisement. LOL
The setup is critical. Not sure if you can set up a scrap board to make cuts to see if the setup is hitting the center.

 

[Jess Parrett]

Always do the center of the ascending or descending using a Lazer , never use a stop block. Any minute error is repeated and compounded. Clarence Rannefiels in his book “Laminated Designs in Wood” cautions about that and I have found it to be very true. Lloyd Johnson uses a Lazer pointer in his power point. I couldn’t replicate his setup but developed one of my own , using a drill press Lazer on a table saw sled. See photos

 

[mfisher]

Always do the center of the ascending or descending using a Lazer , never use a stop block. Any minute error is repeated and compounded. Clarence Rannefiels in his book “Laminated Designs in Wood” cautions about that and I have found it to be very true. Lloyd Johnson uses a Lazer pointer in his power point. I couldn’t replicate his setup but developed one of my own , using a drill press Lazer on a table saw sled. See photos

great set up and explanation.

what model laser is that and where did you purchase it.

 

[Jess Parrett]

Wixley brand drill press Lazer from Woodcraft here in Cincinnati. Oddly enough it was on the sale table for 25% off. Several of my friends in the Local Guild have built similar jig/sleds .

 

[Lloyd Johnson]

There’s some very good information at this link;

Lamination PRO Samples

When you install Lamination PRO, it creates a folder named 'My Lamination PRO' and creates a folder in it named 'Samples'. That folder contains some of the files attached to this page. Additional downloadable files and projects can be found in the Member Contributed Projects Forum

woodturnerpro.com

Scroll down to the Power Point files.They are all worth watching, but the one named Beyond Chevrons discusses the questions you’re asking.

It shows the Relative Positioning method where you use a laser to make the first cut and the before you remove the board, you take a cutoff piece of the lamination and rotate and position it with double sided tape. With that in place, you can lift the board you’re cutting and move it into position to make the next and subsequent cuts. It’s hard to describe, but the PowerPoint demonstrates it.

Lloyd

 

[Marfolomew]

Thanks everyone for the great advice! I didn’t see the ppt files… maybe I need to reinstall my software.

I finished my ring 9 neck… it turned out “ok”. All rings are done except the signature ring 6 with the simple 1st gen chevron pattern. I’ll cut that out next and start gluing my rings together (on my new stomper).

This is my first 2nd gen vessel… lots of stress (and mistakes)! In fact my last segmented vessel was 5-6 years ago, so I had to re-remember some things.

 

[mfisher]

Nice work. Please consider posting the finished turned vessel.

 

[Lloyd Johnson]

You’ve successfully mastered the learning curve. Everything gets easier from here.

If it makes you feel any better, I struggled with my first 2nd generation, too.

You do’t need to reinstall the software. If the software works, it’s installed correctly. The important thing is to trust the software as it does not make mistakes, thanks to trigonometry that never lies. Make sure you look closely at the software’s kerf lines all the time. They show you exactly where the the target marks are to be made (the light blue cross hairs). Before you make any cuts. Use an angle finder to draw a pencil line on your board at the desired angle through the target and then compare it with the image in Lamination PRO. If it is identical, make the cut. If not, make corrections until it is the same and then make the cut.

It takes too much wood and too much time to make a ring that isn’t what you expected. If you’re unsure, make the design using MDF and make your errors on that ring.

Lloyd