Varying SEL in same ring

JackFreed

PRO Member
Is it possible to lay out a ring with 2 different segment edge lengths in the same ring? I'm trying to do a feature ring similar to the one in the attached photo which is a bowl by Ray Allen. I don't recall being able to vary the SEL in any of the programs, but I'm not all that familiar the programs either. Is it possible?
Thanks,
Jack
 

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mfisher

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hi Jack.
As far as I know you cannot vary the SEL within a ring in either program (WTP or SP) by selecting the ring or segment.

For your planning purposes there may be a work around. Looking at Ray Allen featured ring as having two patterns. The main one has a narrow stripe in the middle. The ends are made up of smaller length with two stripes Think of the end pieces as vertical spacers. and the other as the main segment.

Seg1.jpg Seg2.jpg
WTP gives you full control of rings. I would use WTP for your design. Design your vessel.
When it comes to the featured ring. Select the ring in WTP,
When you add spacers to that ring and set the spacer width it will adjust the SEL needed to make the ring to the diameter you planned.

example 12 segments 10.25" ring = 2.75 SEL
12 segments 10.25" ring with 0.75" spacers = 1.97" SEL
 

mfisher

Super Moderator
Staff member
1634858106739.png

Best I could do with a quick cut and paste of the featured ring. I made two images. Added them to WTP species list. Closed and restarted WTP.
(The species list is populated at WTP startup. Hope this makes sense.
 

mfisher

Super Moderator
Staff member
It all makes perfect sense! Thanks for the help.
Jack.
After looking at what you want to do I have another suggestion that does not involve using the spacers.

Using WTP you know the dimensions of your featured ring and the SEL.
- Build two separate laminates. (laminate for the single stripe and a laminate for the two stripes.)
- Determine how wide you want the single stripe laminate and the two stripes to be based on the needed SEL.
- Cut the laminates into blocks slightly larger than what you need in width.
- Glue the blocks together
- find the center , set up you miter sled and cut the desired angle.
imo, this would be a better way to build the featured ring.

cut blocks.jpg

 

JackFreed

PRO Member
Thanks for the tip!
Is there a way to save the lamination created in LaminationPro to the WTP "Vertical Spacers" species list? I've got it in the dropdown list of the WTP "Row Details/Species" dropdown on the left, but not in the "Vertical Spacers" dropdown on the right.
 

mfisher

Super Moderator
Staff member
Thanks for the tip!
Is there a way to save the lamination created in LaminationPro to the WTP "Vertical Spacers" species list? I've got it in the dropdown list of the WTP "Row Details/Species" dropdown on the left, but not in the "Vertical Spacers" dropdown on the right.

- The species list in WTP is generated each time the program starts. It does not have a separate file for spaces.

- Start WTP and add the two lamination pro images to the species list.
The options in LP is to export image or export to WTP (WTP must be up and running. It takes you directly to the species add window)
- close / exit WTP
- Restart WTP. Your two new species should be there.

In the example in post 3 the species were added as space and segment.

Sorry for the delay. Packers were the early game and the Cardinals were the afternoon NFL game. I like both teams.

Still thing the best option is to build a segment and cut to segment size as outlined in post 5.
 

JackFreed

PRO Member
Thanks! I don't know why the file was showing up in one dropdown and not the other. I'm on a Mac, and I'm always a little suspicious about things working the way they should when it comes to Windows programs. After resaving and restarting a couple of times, I finally got the file to show up in both dropdowns.

I agree with you that post 5 is a great way to construct the segments. I'm definitely going to follow those instructions. It's the visual representation in WTP that I've been struggling with.

Thanks for the help. It's finally starting to come together!
 

mfisher

Super Moderator
Staff member
Thanks! I don't know why the file was showing up in one dropdown and not the other. I'm on a Mac, and I'm always a little suspicious about things working the way they should when it comes to Windows programs. After resaving and restarting a couple of times, I finally got the file to show up in both dropdowns.

I agree with you that post 5 is a great way to construct the segments. I'm definitely going to follow those instructions. It's the visual representation in WTP that I've been struggling with.

Thanks for the help. It's finally starting to come together!
The software is written for Windows. You must be using a windows emulator on your Mac. Glad it working.

Here is a suggesting for you. Use a graphic image program. I use InfanView (free program) I have not a clue if it will work on a Mac.
Using a graphic program merge the two image files into one and save it. Then bring it in as a species.
Then you would have no need for the spaces.

Here is a quick example of combine two images into 1. No spacers needed.


test.jpg
 
Last edited:

mcjayjay

New Member
If your desire is to get cutting dimensions and not interested in the WTP visual representation of your vessel it’s relatively simple. Remember KISS.

Assuming the design has the larger segment twice the smaller segment, I'm going to use a 12" outside diameter.
1 - Set ring type to Wheel
2 - Make sure the Spoke Width is 0
3 - Set # Segments to 6
This is the 'trick' as the larger segment is SEL and the smaller is SEL/2
4 - Now look at the SEL dimensions
SEL = 6 15/16"
Divide by 3 = 2.3125
5 - Set the spoke width to 2.3125 (2 5/16")
The larger Segment Edge Length is 4 1/4"
The Spoke Width is not exactly half
6 - Tweak the Spoke Width 1/16" at a time until it is 1/2 the SEL
When spoke width is 2 3/16" the SEL is 4 3/8" - exactly as needed
7 - Now let's compensate for the vertical spacer
Assuming the vertical spacer width is 1/8"
8 - Reduce each Segment Edge Length by 1/8"
Hence 6 @ 2 1/16" and 6 @ 4 1/4"

1635158471127.png
 

Lloyd Johnson

Administrator
Staff member
McJayJay,

I just saw this thread (I’ve been tied up on other projects, unfortunately) but was going to suggest the Wheel type myself so thanks for your excellent post. The Wheel type is the least used type in Woodturner PRO but I find it to be extremely useful for purposes just like this.

Lloyd
 

Lloyd Johnson

Administrator
Staff member
Thanks to Mike for explaining about including species in Woodturner PRO and I’d like to expand on that a bit to explain why it works the way it does.

In Segment PRO and Lamination PRO, species are simply added by dropping an image file into the species folder (each program has its own) and that image is now available as a species with file name being the species name. Easy-peasy.

No such folder exists in Woodturner PRO as that software was written years before Lamination PRO. Instead you add species to the software using two different methods. File > Options > Add Custom Species lets you browse to an image file and it becomes a permanent addition to the species list. That’s great, but if you are making an image that is only to be used in the file you’re working on, there’s no reason for it to become a permanent addition. So the second method is available only from Lamination PRO and that is to transfer the current image directly into Woodturner PRO for the current project only. That species is only available from the popup window you use when you are painting individual segments or painting the currently selected row. As an added feature, though, that species is saved with the saved project so that if you move it to a different computer or email it to someone, the image is there even though it isn’t part of the permanent species.

I have a lot of images created in Lamination PRO that I use when designing a bowl and I simply want to see what different designs work with various wall profiles. For this purpose, I use Lamination PRO but instead of transferring them directly into Woodturner PRO, I export them as file and then use add them as Custom Species and when I do, I click the button that says to stretch them. You then use the regular species list to paint the row with whatever species you want and it will always fill each segment with that image. Once you find the one you want, you will have to go back to Lamination PRO and redesign that image to fit the target ring’s height and the proper SEL and then you can transfer it directly and include the instructions so that you can build it anytime in the future without having to recreate it in Lamination PRO.
 
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