Lamination Pro question

[rtaylor]

When making the second generation cuts Lamination Pro shows to make the cuts at the intersection of the blue lines. I can not figure out how to determine where this intersection is. The horizontal line is the center line of the lamination but I am confused about the kerf line. If anyone can help let me know.

RTaylor

 

[mfisher]

I also have been struggling a bit on this, and I think the light bulb finally turned on. Hopefully Lloyd will correct me if I have wrong.

Instructions say to cut through the center of the declining pattern. by default this should be left strip on the repeating pair of strips.
Drawing an X using just the left strip of the repeating pairs (top right to bottom left, top left to bottom right), the lines should intersect in the center of the left strip.

Comparing the above with what lamination pro shows seems to be the same spot.

the hard part for me is lining up the board so when cutting (example 25 degrees for the second gen),

go to Lamination PRO Tutorials - Multi-Generation Laminations under the software tutorial threads. There is a pdf file tips and tricks. It has a slide that shows markings for a center of a strip.

hope this helps.

 

[mightymavkev]

Don't mean to add to any confusion, but when I read the instructions, I understood the "declining" pattern to be the RIGHT pattern not the LEFT.

Perhaps I am wrong as well, but the way I've been remembering it is based on the direction of the bottom miters after the pieces are positioned. The bottom miter on the left piece is usually inclining and the bottom miter on the right piece (after it is flipped) is usually declining.

Here's my weak attempt at explaining what I've been looking at. Again, I'm only talking about the bottom edge of each strip after it is mitered and positioned for the next generation (flipped).

In sequence after miters:
/ / / / / /
After flipping every second one:
/ \ / \ / \

The left pieces are inclining at the bottom miter and the right pieces are declining at the bottom miter.

Then, whichever pieces the plan calls for cutting on the next generation, find where the pattern center line intersects the vertical center of that piece and that's the center of your saw kerf.


Of course, if flipping and flopping are altered, that little trick no longer works, but that's what I've been doing so far in my limited number of designs.

Of course, I haven't cut any of these yet, so seeing it on a software screen and on real wood are two different matters I imagine.

Kevin

 

[mightymavkev]

I've just seen several other references to the right side piece being the "inclining" piece. So it's pretty clear I've had this wrong so far. Oh well, back to do some more reading. I thought I had it down. :-(

Sorry to confuse. I'm learning as well.

 

[mfisher]

From Lamination Pro help (terminology)

Repeating Unit - another name for a chevron pattern. The default action of Lamination PRO is for the Repeating Unit to be a chevron where the left strip has a declining pattern and the right has an inclining pattern. In Lamiation PRO, the left strip is ALWAYS considered the declining pattern and the right strip is ALWAYS the inclining pattern."

That is why I said to find the center of the left strip of the repeating unit (chevron).

 

[mightymavkev]

Thanks.

I'm getting there I think. I had them backwards even for my approach (using the bottom "tail" miters as the indicator). But even if I didn't, that only works on the 2nd generation it seems.

Seems to me it might be better to just think in terms of left and right and forget about this "inclining" and "declining" thing.

Now, if someone can help explain the Radial cuts and the whole "top" and "bottom" thing that would be great.

 

[rtaylor]

I think I'm getting the drift now. I'll have to do some cutting to experiment some more. Thanks to all of you for your input.

 

[Lloyd Johnson]

Hi all,
Sorry to be late to the party - I've been in meetings that lasted WAY too long. :-<

Here are some general tips to make understanding inclines and inclines and where to make successive cuts easier to understand.

When you cut the laminated board into strips and assemble them, you should always do it so that the first two strips form a chevron which should look like the Chevron Oil Company logo which forms the letter 'V'. Now yes, it's true that an inverted 'V' is also a Chevron, but whoever thought that was a good idea was clearly nuts.

In Lamination PRO, the left strip has a declining pattern and the right strip has an inclining pattern. On the screen, every generation is drawn like this - the first strip to the left of the screen is ALWAYS the declining pattern (left strip) and the next strip is ALWAYS the inclining pattern (right strip) forming one complete Repeating Unit. The reason that this is important is that if you choose not to Flip alternating strips, there is no concept of declining or inclining because they all are facing the same direction. Still, the first one on the screen is the left strip and is therefore the declining pattern and the second is the right strip (inclining pattern). For additional help in Lamination PRO, click the Details button and the two strips of the Repeating Unit are outlined in red.

You'll notice that as you go through the generations with Flip pressed, it is always possible to see a declining and inclining pattern.

Once you decide whether you want to cut through the declining or inclining centers, the intersection of the blue lines will show you where the center of your saw blade should be, but this is assuming that you have used a symmetric pattern and that may not be the case. If, for example, you have a wider top strip than a bottom strip, you may have a symmetric central design but it may not be in the center of the board and if you cut where the blue lines intersect, you'll get a very interesting pattern, just not the one you were expecting.

Regardless of whether your laminated board was symmetric or not, the easiest way to identify the proper cut location is to locate the center of the featured design on the declining or inclining strip. That's where the method I demonstrate in the tutorial mentioned in an earlier post works great. On that strip, pencil lines connecting the two symmetric points on the left and right edge of that strip will cross at the center of the design. This is the exact place where the center of your saw blade should touch. Using a laser as shown in that tutorial is an easy way to find this point, but it is not the only way.

You can manually position the board so that the blade appears to be in line with that point and then start the saw cut but stop it when it gets to about 1/8" away. Take a look at the saw kerf relative to the point and if it appears that it would miss the point by 1/32", move the board by that amount and your board should now be in the perfect position. Now is the correct time to set the registration block so that the next cut will be in the correct place as well.

While we're on the subject, here is something else that may help to understand the software. When you cut a board into strips and then reassemble them, the left strip (declining pattern) never changes. Any flips or flops that you do to any generation ONLY happens to the right strip (inclining pattern).

I hope that helps.
Lloyd

 

[Lloyd Johnson]

Thanks.

I'm getting there I think. I had them backwards even for my approach (using the bottom "tail" miters as the indicator). But even if I didn't, that only works on the 2nd generation it seems.

Seems to me it might be better to just think in terms of left and right and forget about this "inclining" and "declining" thing.

Now, if someone can help explain the Radial cuts and the whole "top" and "bottom" thing that would be great.

You're probably right about just using Left and Right instead of Decline and Incline. Since the definitive work in multi-generation laminations has been done in the book 'Laminated Designs in Wood' by Charles Rannefeld and he only referred to Decline and Incline, I decided to carry on where he left off. It is confusing, though.

Cutting radial segments is also confusing, as you have stated, so let's see if I can clear things up a bit.

First, the simple stuff - you MUST start with a symmetric laminated board if you choose to make a design from radial segments.

Cutting radial segments is actually pretty easy because there are fewer decisions to make. First, you have to decide how many radial segments are to be used to make a disk. Next you have to decide whether you'll use whole or half repeating units and finally, you have to decide whether to use top, bottom or both top and bottom segments. I'll discuss each of these.

The number of segments simply determines the cutting angle and this is identical to picking the number of segments in a segmented ring, so this is no big deal.

Using whole or half-repeating units is significant, and confusing. If you choose to use whole repeating units, your cuts are going to made at the vertical center of the board where they cross the edges of the repeating unit. The vertical center of the board is defined as halfway between top and bottom of the 'ears' formed on each edge of the sawtooth pattern of the board and this is clearly shown in Lamination PRO on the Vertical Segments View.

When using whole repeating units, the radial segments you cut from the top of the board will have a different pattern than those cut from the lower part of the board. You will usually want to use just top segments to make a design and just the bottom segments which will result in a completely different design. Using both top and bottom segments can give a very interesting pattern that will not be completely symmetric.

If you use half-repeating units to make your disk, you will still use the vertical center of the board to determine the cutting point, but instead of cutting through the edges of the full repeating unit, you'll cut through the center of the left and right strips where they cross the center line. If you study the lines drawn by Lamination PRO, it will become evident where these intersections will be found.

With half-repeating units, the top and bottom radial segments should always be identical - in theory. In practice, it is difficult to make these radial cuts accurate to the point that the top and bottom segments are identical. What you will find is that all the top segments will be identical and all the bottom segments will be identical but they may not be interchangeable. You will most likely have better results to make two disks - one from the top segments and one from the bottom segments to get the best results.

In terms of cutting radial segments, you can make your first cut and then flip the board edge-to-edge and make your next cut, but I find it difficult to get great results when doing this. In my own experience, I have found it best to set the angle as instructed for the desired number of segments and then make all the cuts in one direction. Then take each of those 'strips', reverse the direction of the miter fence, set a stop and cut the strip into two radial segments. This is difficult to do correctly the first time, but once you've done it, it will be easier the next and successive times you do this procedure.

View the tutorial 'Radial Segments' at this link for a pictorial discussion of this topic:
http://woodturnerpro.com/software-t...o-tutorials-multi-generation-laminations.html

Lloyd

 

[jonnblaze]

I'll have to do some cutting to experiment some more. Thanks to all of you for your input.