Wrong details in summary for painted row

Tom DiBiasio

PRO Member
Hi All

I have a little mystery that I hope someone can help me with, I have created a painted bowl project plan in SegPro, all looked great until I did a deep dive into the detail on the summary output tab. One of the rings does not contain the details for the painted segments, and does not match the output of the ring detail export..... In the attached project file you will see that for Ring #11 it shows as 48 segments of maple but infact it should be a combination of Padauk, walnut, and some maple??? I have tried making some structural changes to see if that made a difference, changed the diameter of the bowl, changed the height, repainted a few segments and still this single row shows up as all 48 segs being maple???????

Any insight into what I could be doing wrong would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

TomD
 

Attachments

  • 2022-1-18-10-56-50.json
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mfisher

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hi Tom
- First question. Did you change the number of segments per ring anytime after you started painting the segments?
 

Tom DiBiasio

PRO Member
As I’m new to the software and trying to learn all the feature as I go I would have to say “maybe” :) . Do you think that could have something to do with it?
 

mfisher

Super Moderator
Staff member
As I’m new to the software and trying to learn all the feature as I go I would have to say “maybe” :) . Do you think that could have something to do with it?

Yes. In another thread Lloyd posted:
"Segment PRO has to keep track of every segment that has been painted. If you paint a bowl and then change the number of segments, the software still has the painted segments in memory in case you change back to the old number of segments. When you reduce the number of segments, though, the math isn’t correct because it doesn’t match what is in memory. So if you ever change the number of segments, you must reset the segments and repaint and when you do, the Summary will be correct again."

When painting a design first determine the number of segments per ring. Then don't change it. The summary sheet should come out correct.

Lloyd is working on an update that will give a warning and do a reset when painting and changing the number of segments.
 

mfisher

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hi Tom
I redid your plan. same file name as your export. The summary sheet came out correct.
Left the segments per ring set at 48.

Key to remember when paint. Set the number of segments per ring and then don't change it when painting a design. If you change the number of segments per ring then clear the paint and start over.

Enjoy.
 

Tom DiBiasio

PRO Member
So i copied the json locally and imported it into segpro and still see the same issue with ring #11 - is that a chance you copied the original file in your last post??? Thanks by the way for your help - I can always recreate the project from scratch but I was figuring if you already did it to test your theory - why not just use your :)
 

mfisher

Super Moderator
Staff member
So i copied the json locally and imported it into segpro and still see the same issue with ring #11 - is that a chance you copied the original file in your last post??? Thanks by the way for your help - I can always recreate the project from scratch but I was figuring if you already did it to test your theory - why not just use your :)

The corrected one I attached had the same file name as yours.
In SP delete your plan.
In File share, import the json file.

1643479026523.png
 

mfisher

Super Moderator
Staff member
lets see if I attached the correct one this time. Just downloaded this one and it is the correct one.
 

Attachments

  • 2022-1-18-10-56-50.json
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Tom DiBiasio

PRO Member
Hi mfisher
I have another question I hope you can help with- I am still working on the project above and am making my rings from top (ring13) down. For each ring I increased the bord width by about .25 to give myself some room for shaping on the lathe. When I printed the summary I checked the optimize board width and SEL option and went on my marry way ripping, cutting, and glueing. I’m down to ring 7 and after putting it together I laid it on the stack of other rings and realized it was way small in diameter!!! I then checked some of the other rings and a few are bigger diameter than the summary sheet. I then went to the plan on my pc and noticed that the raw (un optimized) SEL for ring 7 was .642 and the optimized value was .60. I was kind of surprised that SP rounded down to optimize the SEL. Do you think the .42 diff across 48 segments would make my ring to small?? I’m thinking maybe I don’t understand well the optimize feature, even after watching loyds video…..

TomD
 
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mfisher

Super Moderator
Staff member
- The most common practice is to build the vessel from the bottom (ring 1) up. Ring two is centered to the base. (ring 1). You are the first person I know that is assembling from the top down.

- Board width has nothing to do with the outside diameter of the ring. The segment edge length does. If your ring is too small I would bet that the SEL is smaller than what the plan calls for on some or most of your segments. If the ring is too large the SEL is greater than planned.

- As far as wall thickness in the bowl setting window increase it by whatever you feel comfortable with. When you change the width number SP will automatically adjust the cutaway view. It should also make changes to the summary list. if you have the summary list open you will need to go back to bowl view and back in to see the changes.

- The Optimize (board width and SEL ) is used to try and ease your set up. That is minimizes the number of setup changes you need to do.
Depending on the shape of your vessel it can be a useful tool.

Optimize board width helps in minimizing the different strip widths you need to cut.
Optimize SEL by grouping rings allows you to use the same SEL for multiple rings when the difference is not that great.
You end up cutting more on the lathe for the shape.

In your question Ring 7 has a SEL of .642. When you optimized the SEL, Ring 5, 6 and 7 in your project all have the SEL of .600
four hundredths of an inch is not much of a change.
Rings 8 - 13 all have the same SEL of .700

[Generally, when I use the optimize for SEL I do increase the wall width by at least 0.25 to give me some room to play with.
 

Tom DiBiasio

PRO Member
Thanks for your fast reply - Just to be on the same page I am not attempting to glue the bowl blank from top down - what I meant to say was i stared constructed the rings from top down and plan to drum sand them all the same height all at once. Once I start to build the bowl blank I will of course start from ring 1 and use my AWESOME stomper and longworth centering setup !!!

I have taken some pictures to better illustrate my exact situation. From the pics you can see my SEL for ring #7 and #8 are pretty damn close to the optimized summary value of .700 for ring 8 and .600 for ring 7, however you can see from the other picture that ring number 7 fits fully inside ring 8 with no way to glue them together. I am leaning twords a conclusion that the small difference between optimized and raw SEL for ring 7 (.642 vs .600) multiplied by 48 segments plus the fact that ring 8 was rounded up making one bigger and one smaller than the true calculated value must be contributing to my problem. Do you have any more thoughts? I think I will have to try all over again and start from scratch not using the optimized version of the summary sheet....

PS: smaller ring in the picture is not glued up yet and I know that one of the maple segments is out of place :)
 

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mfisher

Super Moderator
Staff member
Thanks for your fast reply - Just to be on the same page I am not attempting to glue the bowl blank from top down - what I meant to say was i stared constructed the rings from top down and plan to drum sand them all the same height all at once. Once I start to build the bowl blank I will of course start from ring 1 and use my AWESOME stomper and longworth centering setup !!!

I have taken some pictures to better illustrate my exact situation. From the pics you can see my SEL for ring #7 and #8 are pretty damn close to the optimized summary value of .700 for ring 8 and .600 for ring 7, however you can see from the other picture that ring number 7 fits fully inside ring 8 with no way to glue them together. I am leaning twords a conclusion that the small difference between optimized and raw SEL for ring 7 (.642 vs .600) multiplied by 48 segments plus the fact that ring 8 was rounded up making one bigger and one smaller than the true calculated value must be contributing to my problem. Do you have any more thoughts? I think I will have to try all over again and start from scratch not using the optimized version of the summary sheet....

PS: smaller ring in the picture is not glued up yet and I know that one of the maple segments is out of place :)

It is going to be helpful if you post the json file you are using. My numbers are not coming out the same as yours and we then be on the same page.

- What does your SP summary show for the Outer and Inner diameter for ring 7 and ring 8?
- What was the board width of the strips used to cut the segments from for ring 7 and 8?
- After construction what are the ring diameter (outside) for ring 7 and 8.

- Did you optimize both board width and SEL and used those numbers to cut out the segments?

The issue I see is ring 7 is too small or the board with is not wide enough.

One thing I like about WTP is the cutaway view is more robust. You can show glue surface measurements.
 

mfisher

Super Moderator
Staff member
In future projects I would suggest increasing the wall width in SP.

You could send Lloyd a question via email for an explanation of the math behind the optimization of board width and SEL.

As I said before SEL impacts the outer diameter of a ring. Board width impacts the inner diameter size, therefore the glue surface between the bottom and top ring being glued.
======================================================
I have used WTP and SP for years. I have found the sotware calculations to be accurate. I have made rings that were either larger or smaller than the planed size. It always turned out the be a SEL error in my cutting of the segments.

Some of my personal choices are I tend to add .125 to .25 in the outside diameter. That is if I want a 6 inch OD ring. I make a 6.25 inch ring and turn down to the 6" diameter. To do that I make sure I add to the board width to ensure I have enough glue up.
Wood Turner Pro makes that a very easy process.

When designing in Segment Pro I will increase the wall thickness to provide the added material. I may want a .25 inch wall thickness but I will use .5 to .75 in the plan, knowing I will turn down to .25.
 
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