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Weird Results

Andrew Rothwell

PRO Member
Greetings all -
Not sure which forum to post this in - so it's going here. I am using a wedgie sled, based on Lloyds Design, and using the 32 segment wedgie that I bought from him too.
However when I cut 32 segments there is a HUGE discrepancy in the ring. However if I take 2 segments out - it's perfect. Just to confirm - the wedgie says 32segs 11.25 degrees. (11.25x32=360) so I know that the math works out.

So I figured that something is wrong - I had a friend draw up a 32 segment wedge on CAD, that I then imported into my X-Carve, cut it out. Well the angles are the same as the Plastic purchased wedge. This is the first time using the 32 wedge.

I actually cut up a large project using a 32 segment pattern that I made with segeasy - well every single ring had to have 2 segments pulled, needless to say that the pattern did not work, and I ended up abandoning the pattern and went with a chaotic pattern just to save the wood.

Please help a confused person
 

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Check to see your saw is cutting the required angle with the sled. Calculate backwards from the result to see what the actual angle of cut is.
 
Greetings all -
Not sure which forum to post this in - so it's going here. I am using a wedgie sled, based on Lloyds Design, and using the 32 segment wedgie that I bought from him too.
However when I cut 32 segments there is a HUGE discrepancy in the ring. However if I take 2 segments out - it's perfect. Just to confirm - the wedgie says 32segs 11.25 degrees. (11.25x32=360) so I know that the math works out.

So I figured that something is wrong - I had a friend draw up a 32 segment wedge on CAD, that I then imported into my X-Carve, cut it out. Well the angles are the same as the Plastic purchased wedge. This is the first time using the 32 wedge.

I actually cut up a large project using a 32 segment pattern that I made with segeasy - well every single ring had to have 2 segments pulled, needless to say that the pattern did not work, and I ended up abandoning the pattern and went with a chaotic pattern just to save the wood.

Please help a confused person

Could you post photo of your wedgie you purchased from Lloyd? The reason I am asking I do not see a 32 segment wedgie. When I reviewed the hardware/segeasy plates for the stomper, All of them are for open segment vessels , not closed. The segeasy site sells wedges for closed segments.

Make sure you have a closed segment wedgie not a wedge for open segments.

As far as the math for calculating the miter angle for a segment. Remember there are 2 cuts per segment.
The easiest way to calculate is:
miter angle = 180/ number of segments
ex: 180/36 = 5 degrees
In your case 180/32 = 5.625 degrees. So the angle to cut segments for a 32 segment ring would be 5.625 per side of the segment. Adds up to 11.25
 
Here's the image
And the wedgie set that I bought was the wedgie set 3
Wedgie Set 3 contains one each: 16, 18, 20, 24, 32, 36, 40, 48
 

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Here's the image
And the wedgie set that I bought was the wedgie set 3
Wedgie Set 3 contains one each: 16, 18, 20, 24, 32, 36, 40, 48
Thanks. That rules out it being the stomper open segment wedgie
What is interesting to me is that you say removing 2 segments makes a good 30 segment ring.
I would check to see what the angle of the segments are. Again angle should be 5.625 for 32 segments.
If you are getting a good 30 segment ring then the angle would be 6 degrees.

You stated you made your own wedge and it came out the same as the one you purchased. So I would think that you could rule out the segment wedge as the problem.

I have made 36 segment rings; None with a error that caused 2 segments to be removed to make a circle. The more segments per ring the more critical the stock you are cutting has good parallel sides. If you are using the two fence (segeasy) method of cutting the segments it is critical that the sides of the fences are parallel.
 
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So here's another pic

It seems the wedge is ok. I only see one fence. The wedge would be used to set up both the front and back fence on a two fence cut system by placing the wedge between the two fences.

If you are using just one fence and flipping the wood the miter angle would be 11.25 / 2. = 5,625
 
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There is definitely 2 fences, I was just testing the angle of the wedge.
I'll try to get another ring tomorrow.
And yes, I am using both of the fences.
 
The ring you picture shows no sign of any reference marks. If you watch Jerry Bennets videos you will see what I mean. Every two cuts will be a set not to be mixed up, odd and even. If the pieces were simply cut and piled up before cutting I could see getting some errors. What is your cutting routine?
 
The ring you picture shows no sign of any reference marks. If you watch Jerry Bennets videos you will see what I mean. Every two cuts will be a set not to be mixed up, odd and even. If the pieces were simply cut and piled up before cutting I could see getting some errors. What is your cutting routine?
I agree that marking is important. When building the ring by alternating the outside edge mark to every other segment basically is correcting the error of the saw blade not being 90 degrees to the table. imo, something else went wrong with AR saying removing two segments made a good 30 segment ring, instead of the intended 32. That is telling me the segment were not cut at the correct angle.

By the photo the 30 segment rings looks ok. That means the segments must have been cut at 6 degrees. The 32 segment would need 5.625 degrees per side for the 11.25 total. Many factors can lead to bad rings. Especially as the segment count goes up.
 
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Good Morning -
So I went back and re-watched the video - and then cut another test ring - and it was perfect. It was definitely an ID10T error. I was marking all my pieces, but I was flipping them, instead of arranging them with the marking up. I guess that was compounding any error that I had in my sled and essentially it was enough of an error that 2 segments worth had to be removed to fix the error.

Thank you everybody for the help - Problem was me.
Thanks again.
 
Sorry I missed out on this thread - social distancing has me remodeling two bathrooms. :-<

I’m glad you sorted out the issue but I thought I’d review the formulas for determining the cutting angles for closed and open rings...

Closed Segments: 360 / segments / 2
Example for 12 segments: 360 / 12 / 2 = 15 degrees

Open Segments: (360 - (segments * gap)) / segments / 2
Example for 12 segments with 8 degree gaps: 360 - (12 * 8) / 12 / 2 = 264 / 12 / 2 = 11 degrees

I’m still a bit puzzled by your results, though. The wedgie sled works on the concept of a complimentary angle which means that the second cut is the first cut times negative 1. This means that on any table saw, tuned or not, the first cut is likely imperfect but the second cut is that imperfection times -1 (the opposite of the first cut). This means that if the two fences of the sled have perfectly parallel sides, placing a wedge with a true angle between them would mean that 12 segments would make a perfect ring regardless of if they were all facing up or not. If the ring isn’t perfect, it would mean that the angle may be correct but the blade is tilted.

There are two things I would check. First is blade alignment. Raise the blade for its fullest height and use your miter set at zero to cut a piece of mdf that is as tall as possible. Flip one of the two pieces by 180 degrees and when the two sawn edges meet, the resulting board should make a board that is straight and level.

Second, check to make that the two fences have perfectly parallel edges. A fraction of a degree off parallel is multiplied by the number of segments you cut.

If you always have the faces of all the segments facing up, none of this matters. To have some fun, though, introduce an error on purpose. Tilt the blade by a little or a lot and cut 12 segments and you’ll still get a perfect ring but the glue joints will no longer point up. Likewise, loosen the two fences and with the wedge still in place, orient them differently to the saw blade. This will make a perfect ring but the glue joints will no longer point to the center of the bowl.

If you make a bowl from these rings, you’ll get some interesting results - especially at the place where the diameter of the vessel is changing rapidly. You’ll observe that all joints appear to be curved. If you make two bowls where one is perfect and the other has planned imperfections, the latter will garner far more attention as people will wonder how you were able to make curved glue joints using a table saw.
 
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